The Seduction Community is Guitar Hero for Dating

 

As with the post on the Law of Attraction and VitaminWater, this is a topic with which I am expecting hurt feelings and emotional responses. Let’s keep it clean in the comments – personal attacks and the like will be deleted – and I’d very much like to hear good, logical arguments from both sides.

The Game

I’ve heard, in a vague way, about the Seduction Community off and on throughout my adult life.

For me, it started after Neil Strauss’ book, The Game, was published, but I imagine even more people became aware of this sub-culture after Mystery (one of the main characters of the book) got himself a TV show.

But even with the recent popularity it has enjoyed in the mainstream media, let me give a brief overview of what the Seduction Community is all about for the uninitiated.

The point of this system (or rather, collection of systems) is to break down the art of picking up women into digestible chunks so that each piece can be analyzed, improved upon, and further systematized so that anyone can successfully pick up a woman who would generally be out of his league.

To do this, a combination of psychology, sociology, Neuro Linguistic Programming and other fun socio/psychological-related studies are brought to bear, not to mention the extensive research (hitting on lots and lots of women all the time) that’s done in the field.

This information is then disseminated throughout various forums, email lists, ebooks and membership-funded websites, each teaching a different brand of the overall pickup schema: step-by-step instructions on how to get that number, run those bases and get that gal into the sack with as little room for error as possible.

On the surface this may not seem too surprising, even if you’ve never heard of The Game or the Seduction Community. Hell, men have been trying to figure out how to have more sex since the dawn of time, so the fact that it would be brought up to modern standards, with Open Source-like wiki instruction manuals and business-savvy gurus is the logical next step.

On top of that, I’m told by a few of my friends that you also gain more confidence by going through the motions and learning the tactics that make a pickup artist successful. Having women pay attention to you, getting laid, knowing how to control a conversation or situation…these are all things that ramp up the self-confidence to new levels, which is good for a person overall.

Despite these positives, however, the Seduction Community is a bit like a candy bar – satisfying in the short-term, but potentially harmful in the long.

The Confidence Game

Confidence is not an easy thing to build up. It takes years and experience and tidbits of knowledge to add up to a really confident human being, and even then its possible the attitude won’t stick.

And naturally, if something is difficult and time-consuming, there will be those who are looking for shortcuts. This is human nature, and what makes society awesome. Go society!

If you get your confidence through other people, however, you’re bound to always seek the approval and attention of someone else (in this case, the opposite sex), which, rather than improving a person’s life, actually forces them to constantly question their own value based on the ebb and flow of eyeballs and conversation coming their way.

This is not confidence, this is preening.

The systems utilized by the Seduction Community create a situation which can be easily understood and handled by people who play video games: you’ve got yourself an avatar (or in this case, fake name and persona), a set of special powers (perhaps a fake job, costume or some tricks to break the ice) and a quantifiable goal.

Making out with a woman, getting a phone number, or sleeping with someone is a point, and many pickup artists will eagerly keep track of their score, comparing theirs with each other to see who they can learn from and who they can teach.

This is, of course, is an extension of the previous statement of getting value through others rather than through yourself. It’s also a huge lapse of moral judgment.

As soon as you reduce someone else to a number – to one more notch on your bedpost or one more phone number in your collection – you’ve essentially eliminated your chances of dealing with that person as another human being. How can you value someone for who they actually are when the purpose of talking to them in the first place is to rack up another point, to boost your own confidence level? How can you have a legitimate conversation when everything you say comes from a cheat-sheet or fits into a process you learned from someone else?

These systems have been known to work, sure, but its not a sustainable model. Knowing something about marketing and sociology makes sense if you’re not comfortable in social settings, but to go through life running lines from a script puts more distance between you and others and keeps you stunted socially – you may get better at running lines, but you’ll never get better at not NEEDING lines in the first place.

The Sexist Game

Other people have spoken more eloquently than I could about the overtly sexist nature of the Seduction Community, and how teaching boys to treat women like objects rather than people is probably not the best direction for society, so I won’t focus on that here. I think there are pros and cons of the lessons, even if I disagree with the overall philosophy of the Community.

But real quick, a lot of words have been said by members of both sexes about how pickup artistry actually makes for a better social situation for both parties involved. I would say that in some circumstances, yes, this is true: people don’t always say what they mean, ‘no’ doesn’t always mean ‘no,’ and a lot of people want to do things that society tells them they can, so having an excuse to do so is welcome.

Frankly, though, if you have anything at all going on in your life and can hold up your end of a conversation, talking to someone and convincing them to do something they already want to do is not a problem. Instead of pretending to be a celebrity, go become one. Instead of acting like you have a book published, go write one. Instead of feigning like you’re in a band, go learn to play guitar.

The Seduction Community creates the illusion of self-improvement without the benefits.

The Guitar Hero Game

Think of someone you know who is REALLY good at Guitar Hero.

They practice and practice and practice, and they have a lot of fun. When they’re at a party and someone has that fake plastic guitar leaning against the wall, they’re thrilled: they get to show off how good they are at playing this game.

Which is fine – to each their own – but think of what they could have done with that time instead! They could have learned a language or about quantum mechanics or how to paint a portrait or, if you can imagine, how to PLAY GUITAR. In real life. They could be a REAL Guitar Hero.

But instead they play the game, because the instructions are easier to understand, it fits more within their realm of expertise (they’ve played other games, but they haven’t played other instruments), and there is less to lose if they fail. It’s a safe move, and ultimately one that is unrewarding, except to achieve a new high score (which is only truly impressive in the eyes of others who play the same game, or aspire to do so).

Pickup artistry is Guitar Hero for relationships and social interactions.

It provides a framework for people who are unfamiliar with how to talk to women, socialize and improve their skills when it comes to communication, but the end goal is a score like any other game, whereas in real life, success is much more difficult to quantify (and obtain).

And sure, for some people it provides the confidence boost they need to get out into the world, which allows them to move on, build legitimate relationships and start to build up more natural, organic confidence.

But the long and the short of it is that if you have time to spend and you want women to like you, work on YOURSELF first, rather than trying to trick others into thinking you are that person you want to be. It’s a sad, sad individual who knocks others down in order to feel tall, rather than trying to grow and by improving themselves.

The End Game

Like any idea or weapon, pickup artistry is only as good or bad as the people who use it.

I’ve spoken with broad generalities through most of this post, which is a bit unfair, because many people start checking out the Seduction Community and the teachings therein to build up a bit of confidence, learn a few social tricks to give them a boost during conversation. They’re curious and feel like rounding out their world view, and nothing is more tantalizing than someone saying they’ve got it all figured out, don’t worry about it, just follow these steps and you’ll be fine.

That being said, there are definitely those who use the skills they pick up for things that most wouldn’t consider ethical.

Messing with people’s heads, hearts or expectations is legal, of course, but it’s a dick move. So is lying in order to scrounge favor or a phone number from someone you just met. The only possible reason you could have for presenting yourself as someone that you’re not is because you’re ashamed of who you really are, and if that’s the case, masquerading or reading from a script only increases the problem, it doesn’t move you toward a solution.

Think of it this way: if you’re doing something that you wouldn’t want EVERYONE to know, you should probably question the morality of said action. Most pickup artists that I know squirm at the thought of a girl finding out what they’re up to, because they know that what they’re doing (or at least WHY they’re doing it) is ethically questionable.

Eventually everyone has to deal with the real world, and a big part of that is moving away from easy-fix social instruction manuals and romanticized, weakly-justified motivations behind your own actions.

No matter how much time you spend reciting lines and wearing costumes, life won’t get any better until you start investing in yourself and taking responsibility for the results.

Stop playing games and start living life.

58 comments

    • Right? I don’t know what I would do if I wasn’t able to surround myself with the radtastic folks that I learn form and share with. If I were just a figment of the imagination, I don’t think I’d be able to keep them around.

  1. Quite honestly, what you’ve said is the basic conclusion of the book. You start by seducing women, but you end up in a treadmill where you have to go out every night and get girls because all your boys are expecting you to. Failing is not an option. In the end, he gets out by having a real, long-term relationship with a girl who doesn’t fall for his plays.

    • Yeah, I was quite shocked at the ending, actually. It was one of those moments where I was like ‘how can this Community exist if they’ve read this book??’

      Truthfully, there are those who want a series of quicker flings, and those who want long-term relationships, and those who want neither or something in between. There’s no ideal relationship other than the one that makes you happy, so do what you need to in order to get there.

      I think most people would benefit from more general studies of the sciences and tricks used by the Community, though, rather than the ‘weaponized’ form they’ve created, which tends to do more harm than good in the end.

  2. NIce read Colin. I think this could be said in different ways about a number of communities that work on building confidence and reaching sets goals including parts of the personal development/lifestyle design communities.

  3. Colin, I agree with a lot of what you have written, but try telling this stuff to a guy who is pretty hopeless with women. By giving men a framework of what to do, the seduction community really gives guys hope, when previously they have resigned themselves to failure with women.

    Before I discovered this community, I was mediocre with women. I tried out some of the techniques and routines, and when they didn’t work out straight away, it can get you down. When your self-esteem is dependent on getting a number or a make-out, essentially “getting value through others rather than through yourself” as you put it, not getting the girl can really hurt your ego.

    Pretty soon I dropped the lines and routines, and most importantly, I dropped my dependence on the outcome of getting girls, and instead concentrated on doing stuff that made me happy that was not related to pickup – in my case, going traveling. It just so happens that when you have other stuff going on in your life and you do the things you enjoy doing, it will make you naturally confident and thus, more attractive to women.

    There is one teaching from the pickup community that I really like and it’s “be the best version of yourself”. Pickup got me into general self-improvement and if it wasn’t for the community, I wouldn’t be reading this blog.

    You’re right in that teaching guys to wear costumes, tell pretend stories and use pickup lines is pretty much a facade, and that racking up numbers when interacting with women reduces them to a number or a point. However, after becoming interested in the community, what I do know now is what makes a woman attracted to me, and what to do and say if she does – and surely that’s only a good thing for men to know, especially the ones who were hopeless before.

    • You make a good argument, and as I mentioned in my response to Doc Tyler, the Community can be really beneficial to people in ways they might not have planned.

      That being said, I wish there were a less woman-as-object-focused approach to the whole thing. The misogynistic side of things need not be there to show people how to interact with each other, nor to give the confidence they need to keep plugging away at it until the get the gist.

      The ‘be the best version of yourself’ quote rings true to my ears, as that’s essentially what personal branding is all about (simplified down, of course, but that’s the basic premise of it). In fact, as I read The Game, I found that a whole lot of what they teach were things that I was already doing, and all they did was give a name and method of training to it (something that horrified me initially, but I got over it when I realized that my problem was mostly with their philosophies, not their science).

      At the end of the day, it’s your life and you will reap what you sow, and it makes good sense to me to invest in yourself while at the same time building strong relationships with those around you. The Game may help you work on certain aspects of yourself (and make you FEEL like you’re doing more than that), but at the end of the day, your relationships suffer, and as Neil Strauss found, your definition of relationship can change to the point where you don’t even know how to operate without the rules in everyday life.

      Not ideal.

  4. II totally agree with you to an extent. “life won’t get any better until you start investing in yourself and taking responsibility for the results.” Pick-up is like anything else we learn — through real experience and books.

    A few years ago I started school to invest in myself. I thought getting good grades was what I needed to be successful in my chosen field. I lived in the library for (4) years. I graduated valedictorian with an engineering degree and got a kick-ass job.
    The cost – My social skills eroded and were virtually non-existent. I got into the community because I wanted a girlfriend. I just needed to learn social skills. I went out constantly talking to everyone and kick ass socially now.

    As you said in a previous post, “And every single thing I do in a day is done for one reason: sex..….or at least it’s an underlying motivation.” I agree….”sex” is a great motivator. It motivated me to learn REAL social skills.

    I also saw pick-up inadvertently become a major self-improvement stepping stone for a lot of guys. They realized it’s not just about learning lines. It’s about real self improvement. I saw guys start working out to get in shape, they would learn better posture, how to dress, manners, how to socialize, I saw some go back to school and some were motivated to start their own businesses. Because of this, as a whole I see the community as a positive thing – a stepping stone.

    • These are the great kind of stories that I’ve heard from a few people, and honestly I think it’s the one big shining point of the Community.

      It definitely CAN be a very positive thing for people, and I definitely don’t want to negate that with my argument. Hell, even if it’s positive in that it shows people what NOT to do (a lot of the stories I’ve been hearing since I started talking over the points in this article with friends is that they joined the Community and then realized that they could do this stuff by themselves, no instructions or forums or newsletters necessary…still a latent benefit of the group, and it still justifies its existence) it stills scores points in my book.

      What I’m saying, though, is that although some people may benefit from the teachings of the Seduction Community, I believe that most people would benefit more from a somewhat more secular approach to sociology, networking, communication, charisma, etc. Sex is an incredible motivator, but if its the be-all end-all on everyone’s mind, well, there’s a whole lot of other great things that will be missed out on in life along the way, not to mention that greater chance of becoming dependent on the approval of others for one’s self-confidence.

      But again, kudos to you sir for making it work for you, and I sincerely hope that I hear more stories like yours!

  5. The main problem with the Seduction Community is that it naturally attracts men who have had little to no success with women. Because many of these men have been rejected by women throughout much of their lives, they are insecure and sometimes even a little resentful of the beautiful women they pursue. This resentment can create a tendency to dehumanise the “target” or the “HB9″ and that’s where it becomes a little unpleasant.

    That being said, you really hit the nail on the head when you said “Like any idea or weapon, pickup artistry is only as good or bad as the people who use it.” I know plenty of people, including myself, who have benefited from the Seduction Community’s general analysis of social interaction. While I don’t pretend for a second that one can get it down to a formula (or that this is even desirable), it is nice to be more clued in about how a person is responding to a particular interaction.

    • Perhaps someone should create a competing group that teaches people who aren’t very good with women how to be good with women from the standpoint of someone who doesn’t need to pick apart all the details and automate the system?

      A free hug for whomever comes up with the best name for this Community, and bonus points if you start it!

      • A few friends of mine started the “Authentic Man Program” that is basically this.

        Unfortunately (fortunately?) to compete against all the folks selling “Game”, their marketing has made them look not all that much different from the rest. But unless they’ve changed things drastically, the basic concepts and content they teach are exactly what you are asking for.

  6. To be fair to the Community, you’ve painted with a broad brush here. I think the boys at RSD have a philosophy that is pretty similar to yours and have moved away from the traditional style of pickup that the other “sects” practice. They’re more self-improvement based than anything, really.

    Still, the problem is that they still measure success with their “score”, if you will, not their internal feelings of peace/authenticity.

    Put another way: trying to be more authentic is great. Trying to be more authentic and “cool” in order to get girls is pretty lame.

    I could say more on this but I’ve got a paper to write about my state’s gubernatorial election. Still, I wanted to take the time to comment to reward you for a great post, man.

    • Yeah, and I think I said that at some point in the article, but it is worth mentioning again that I was speaking in very large generalities, both when it comes to folks in the Community, and women (there are gals who totally dig that stuff, and more power to them, I suppose).

      That being said, there is still the score thing, and I don’t get why they don’t just call it the Self Improvement Community if that’s what they’re really all about. I would argue that largely the self improvement thing comes second to the ‘let’s get together and talk about vaginas and stuff with other guys who are just finding out about vaginas’ aspect of the group, but again, this is me speaking as someone who hasn’t been an active participant, and I could be misreading things from the outside.

      Authenticity! Yes! You cannot go wrong with that, unless you’re an actor, in which case you should lie your ass off all the time.

      Good luck on the paper!

    • Yeah, and I think I said that at some point in the article, but it is worth mentioning again that I was speaking in very large generalities, both when it comes to folks in the Community, and women (there are gals who totally dig that stuff, and more power to them, I suppose).

      That being said, there is still the score thing, and I don’t get why they don’t just call it the Self Improvement Community if that’s what they’re really all about. I would argue that largely the self improvement thing comes second to the ‘let’s get together and talk about vaginas and stuff with other guys who are just finding out about vaginas’ aspect of the group, but again, this is me speaking as someone who hasn’t been an active participant, and I could be misreading things from the outside.

      Authenticity! Yes! You cannot go wrong with that, unless you’re an actor, in which case you should lie your ass off all the time.

      Good luck on the paper!

  7. wow Colin, this was a crazy read. I had to google “Seduction Community” … I honestly thought it was a term YOU coined for this article. The result/s freaked me out. I feel sad that this “community” even exists.

    I think your piece was spot on though. It’s almost as if you dipped into every girl’s mind. WE really want authentic. I promise every guy single out there.

    Like Colin said-ish, (paraphrasing a lot) If you a succeed in getting that girl/guy with THAT sudo-personality then you MUST rely on that sudo-personality for the duration of that “relationship”. Now is that THE relationship you sought after in the first place? Or is that just a step above NO relationship at all? And what are you even taking on? Think about it. Seriously.

    There might just be one person (reading this) that thinks it can’t do any harm. But here’s how I see it: You are essentially “lying” to someone to make yourself more attractive. They are believing your lies & essentially being “lied to”, and you’re okay with both. huh. That is no way to start any relationship. well, any REAL relationship.

    Forget that and just do more things that will expose you to other people & impromptu situations. anything outside of the house. Today (this is super cheesy) I was at Target and I bought Katy Perry’s CD. The check out dude was like “ahhhh, she has a great video – the whip cream”, I’m like “yeah, did you see she was cut from Sesame Street? … silly”, then a (cute, but super shy) dude behind me was like “yes! did you see the elmo shirt she wore after?” we all started talking about something silly and made each other laugh. then we were all smiling & waving bye to each other like nerds as I was leaving. that’s just life. No scripts, no plans, no “seduction community”.

    Just get the heck out there and enjoy life …. it’s a blessing to be given each day … don’t buy into some BS … get out there and figure it out for yourself. When I left those guys .. i had such a positive exchange – not artificial at all. I’ll probably never see them again … but they came off WAY cooler than the guy that fakes it =) way.

    • Great point Nikki: just engaging in real life can work wonders, but too many people are afraid to put themselves in a position where there’s no strategy guide or instruction manual. I find if you just roll with the punches, you get better and better at it, and with that practice comes personal social evolution.

    • Great point Nikki: just engaging in real life can work wonders, but too many people are afraid to put themselves in a position where there’s no strategy guide or instruction manual. I find if you just roll with the punches, you get better and better at it, and with that practice comes personal social evolution.

    • Great point Nikki: just engaging in real life can work wonders, but too many people are afraid to put themselves in a position where there’s no strategy guide or instruction manual. I find if you just roll with the punches, you get better and better at it, and with that practice comes personal social evolution.

  8. I love both life and games, and I do my best to play both of them to the best of my abilities.

    Making life into a game can do wonders for people with an analytical type of mind. Breaking things down and putting them back together can give us game-players the perspective advantage that we really need.

    And I’m actually not too terribly bad at The Game of Life (the board game) either.

    • The worst part is when you’re stuck in that minivan and you’ve got 4 kids and your mortgage is due…ah, the Game of Life.

      I totally agree, though, and I totally think of life and business and anything strategic in terms of games because that’s how my mind works, too. It helps, too, that I grew up playing a LOT of games, so that kind of reasoning comes much easier to me.

      That being said, games by themselves provide value in that they entertain, but if you’re looking for a long-term investment in yourself, it’s probably smart to spend more time reading or learning a new skill than beating Halo on Legendary, you know?

    • The worst part is when you’re stuck in that minivan and you’ve got 4 kids and your mortgage is due…ah, the Game of Life.

      I totally agree, though, and I totally think of life and business and anything strategic in terms of games because that’s how my mind works, too. It helps, too, that I grew up playing a LOT of games, so that kind of reasoning comes much easier to me.

      That being said, games by themselves provide value in that they entertain, but if you’re looking for a long-term investment in yourself, it’s probably smart to spend more time reading or learning a new skill than beating Halo on Legendary, you know?

  9. Hey, Colin- great read!

    I know that most commenters here will be chatting about the seduction aspect of the post. But as a music instructor (and knowing that you play), I have to make mention of your Guitar Hero analogy. Just last week I spoke exactly the same words, trying to convince someone to quit the phony gaming and spend their time becoming “a REAL Guitar Hero.” Damn you for beating me to blogging about it. Cheers, man- thanks!

    • Haha, glad you liked it, Mark! It’s one I’ve been mulling over for a while, and honestly, the same metaphor applied to me back in the day when I spent all my time playing RPGs and strategy games.

      Eventually I realized I could be spending that time leveling MYSELF up, and it was all downhill from there.

    • Haha, glad you liked it, Mark! It’s one I’ve been mulling over for a while, and honestly, the same metaphor applied to me back in the day when I spent all my time playing RPGs and strategy games.

      Eventually I realized I could be spending that time leveling MYSELF up, and it was all downhill from there.

  10. Oh, Colin, I am SO glad you wrote this.

    I have a couple of male friends who have totally bought into that crap (one of them has not had a serious relationship in YEARS) and still think that it has value. Being able to pick someone up will do nothing to assuage loneliness or true confidence, and it’s great to see a dude speak up and say so.

    • I think there CAN be value in it, just as there can be value in playing Guitar Hero…the big problem is that a lot of people who subscribe to the idea take it too literally and exclusively…as if it’s the instruction manual that will change their life, when in reality it’s just a game some people play for fun and might learn something from here and there.

      You’re so right, though, that if you’re looking to create any kind of connection and assuage your loneliness, look elsewhere. Unless, of course, you’re looking to build relationships with other guys who don’t know how to talk to women. If that’s the case, this is where you want to be.

  11. I’m glad SOMEONE wrote about this and very glad it’s you, Colin. At least, you have a good head on your shoulders and write truthfully. Yay!

    I am tired of men playing games and batting women around as if we’re just cat nip for their casual game of catch. Too many times, I’ve encountered male friends who turn out to want a LOT more than casual friendship. I just don’t dig that. I’m cool with being friends, and one of my closest friends is a male, but anything that involves sleeping around like it’s no big thing does not gel well with me. Maybe for them, it’s normal behavior, but for me, it’s a COMPLETE turnoff and I, for one, don’t speak to those “friends” ever again. And they wonder why I don’t return their calls. Once I get a wind for their true motives, I’m outta there, lightening fast!

    And onto bigger, brighter things. Like hanging out with those who respect me and those whom I can trust. And vice versa. That’s where meaningful relationships can develop and can be had. That’s where the foundations should be built upon. :) Thanks for the great post, Colin. You rock!

  12. Love the opening photo. Good times. Timing is ironic too, since Audrey and I are set to celebrate our 10th anniversary in 2 days.

    Regarding the piece, I think you may have set up a false sharable vs. immoral dichotomy at the end: “if you’re doing something that you wouldn’t want EVERYONE to know, you should probably question the morality of said action.”

    Whoa. Just because I don’t wish to share something doesn’t imply that I believe it to be immoral in the least. I can think of hundreds of examples. Unfortunately, I just don’t want to share them.

    People enjoy private moments, private victories all the time. And they sometimes enjoy them much more because they were never intended for public consumption in the first place.

    • Haha, we WERE ladies men that night, weren’t we? Ah, Buenos Aires.

      I don’t think the dichotomy is a false one: privacy is fine, and I don’t mean sharing as in telling your grandmother all about the rough sex you just had (for example), but if someone WERE to find out about a social tactic you were using and they felt it was abhorrent, wouldn’t that be some ethically rocky ground to you?

      It would to me, and though morality is subjective, I think most would feel the same, whether or not they’ve actually thought about it that way. It amounts to presenting yourself as you or presenting yourself as a lie, in this case, and thought people tell white lies all the time, in general if they are called on them most will fall back to their basic moral foundation (which is this case, I’m presupposing is to tell the truth).

  13. I think the article paints a perfect picture Colin, but from a terrible viewpoint. I don’t blame you or any of the commenters for this, it is exactly what I’d think had I not encountered this stuff much. Sadly, there are far too many creepy guys out there that there isn’t too much of a market for integrating the various philosophies into “normal” life.

    I don’t think that anything is incredibly factually incorrect and your assessment probably reigns true for a sizeable percentage of guys using this stuff. That being said, the article is a pretty horrendous insult to the many people that have been through it and come out “awesome”. I think the Guitar Hero analysis is farcical because it implies you can’t go from being awesome in the game to being awesome for real.

    Simply put, you can.

    • Thanks for the insight, Mark.

      It’s true that I can’t have an insider’s view into this world without actually going through it myself (an act that would be just as farcical, I suppose, as any analysis I could make from the outside), but I still think the metaphor holds, though I didn’t mean for it to be offensive.

      It’s possible that someone playing Guitar Hero could take the passion that they’ve learned, and the rewards that it promises, and start learning the other skillsets necessary to perform at an equal level out in the field, rather than from behind the protection of the screen.

      The same is true – from what I’ve heard – of people in the Community. It is VERY possible for them to get a boost of confidence and inspiration from the personas and point system and then reapply some of what they’ve learned to get a running start at learning what they need to know to function at a high level without them.

      Unfortunately, many seen to miss that last step, which is also true for Guitar Hero…I don’t know many who have taken the leap, but the few that have give me hope.

  14. I think the problem with the community aren’t the techniques themselves but the aims.

    The problem: alter egos are counterproductive, and the aim shouldn’t be as many girls as possible

    Though the same techniques used to present yourself, without the scripting and the lying, can be helpful for people who are socially awkward. For example some people can approach strangers at a party trying to chat and fail just because of a lack of social savy. The techniques themselves, when used to present yourself and not an alter ego and when used not to get a “high score” but for teaching people who to make friends wherever they go and for getting together with that special someone can be pretty awesome =)

    I have a friend who’s amazing; she wrote a play that was performed in her countries national theater when she was just 17 years old, she’s well read in 4 languages, has studied philosophy and has travelled around half the world. Yet when I first met her, I found her boring and uninteresting; not because of who she really was but because she was terrible at showing it and made people feel uncomfortable through awkward failed attempts to be social.

    Being awesome is important, but showing people that you’re awesome is important too ;)

      • Good point, and it’s true, I think, that being able to ‘market’ yourself (for lack of a better word) is important, no matter who you are or what you do.

        There are, of course, many ways to learn how to do this (I think I actually picked it up while learning about sociology, marketing, and journalism in high school and college, while others might just naturally have the gift of selling themselves to others), but the Community seems to put more walls in the way of making that jump than other methods because for so many people involved, the end goal IS the score and the people they want to impress are each other (and that score is the only way they can quantifiably do so).

        I really don’t know that there’s a better way to systematize the whole process, but it’s a shame that there are so many positive components with just a few really irksome ones that hold members back.

  15. The community does great thinks… is in envolving… becoming more inner game and social circle game….

    … what i see is that this is a niche, many people would love to have social skills but there is no company to deliver it…

    … so the close thing is the community, which many people then apply to more general situations….

    • Here’s the biggest LIE you’ll ever hear
      about meeting and dating beautiful
      women:

      https://vindicarlo.infusionsoft.com/go/ommrno/blackheath/

      (along with the TRUTH you’ll need
      for success!)

      Fact is: Most men don’t know how to
      talk to a woman. Much less get her
      in bed.

      And unless you know exactly what
      she wants from men… from sex…
      and from dating in general… then…

      … You’re just “guessing” and
      HOPING she’s gonna like you!

      Screw that.

      Click this link to go to an article I
      wrote – just for you – titled “One
      Minute Mind Reading:”

      https://vindicarlo.infusionsoft.com/go/ommrno/blackheath/

      In it, I show you how to read a
      woman’s deepest thoughts about
      men and sex as clearly as you
      can read these words on your
      screen.

      In under one minute! Even if
      you’ve just met her.

      Also in that article, you’ll discover:

      * THE BIG DATING LIE! What
      women and the media want you
      to believe about sex… that is…
      A bold faced lie! (And the truth
      that makes meeting women
      EASY!)

      * THE “RIGHT WORDS” To get
      her attention… To turn her on…
      To get her phone number… To
      get a date… Saying the “right”
      thing is EASY, when you know
      this secret…

      * FREE YOUR SEX LIFE! She’s got
      your balls in a vice, even if you havent
      slept together yet… and… It’s all
      because of this simple secret.
      (Plus a technique you can
      use to take the sexual upper
      hand!)

      … And a whole lot more!

      Like what you’ll need to know,
      to turn your friend into your sex
      buddy… And even… The easiest
      way to “fix” your self-confidence,
      with women.

      It’s all free. And it’s waiting for you,
      once you click the link below:

      LINKLINKLINKLINKLINK

      Enjoy!

      Your Friend,

      – Vin

      PS. But don’t wait too long
      because… I’m only gonna keep
      this article online for a few days.

      I’m watching the ‘daily stats’
      and if they break 2,000 views
      then… woo boy… that’s just
      too many for me!

      (I use these techniques in MY
      life, too, you know.. So I’d like
      them to stay relatively secret
      and exclusive…)

      Make sure you read
      One Minute Mind Reading
      before it’s too late:

      https://vindicarlo.infusionsoft.com/go/ommrno/blackheath/

      (when I sent out this email,
      there were already 1,400 hits,
      today! :-)

    • Here’s the biggest LIE you’ll ever hear
      about meeting and dating beautiful
      women:

      https://vindicarlo.infusionsoft.com/go/ommrno/blackheath/

      (along with the TRUTH you’ll need
      for success!)

      Fact is: Most men don’t know how to
      talk to a woman. Much less get her
      in bed.

      And unless you know exactly what
      she wants from men… from sex…
      and from dating in general… then…

      … You’re just “guessing” and
      HOPING she’s gonna like you!

      Screw that.

      Click this link to go to an article I
      wrote – just for you – titled “One
      Minute Mind Reading:”

      https://vindicarlo.infusionsoft.com/go/ommrno/blackheath/

      In it, I show you how to read a
      woman’s deepest thoughts about
      men and sex as clearly as you
      can read these words on your
      screen.

      In under one minute! Even if
      you’ve just met her.

      Also in that article, you’ll discover:

      * THE BIG DATING LIE! What
      women and the media want you
      to believe about sex… that is…
      A bold faced lie! (And the truth
      that makes meeting women
      EASY!)

      * THE “RIGHT WORDS” To get
      her attention… To turn her on…
      To get her phone number… To
      get a date… Saying the “right”
      thing is EASY, when you know
      this secret…

      * FREE YOUR SEX LIFE! She’s got
      your balls in a vice, even if you havent
      slept together yet… and… It’s all
      because of this simple secret.
      (Plus a technique you can
      use to take the sexual upper
      hand!)

      … And a whole lot more!

      Like what you’ll need to know,
      to turn your friend into your sex
      buddy… And even… The easiest
      way to “fix” your self-confidence,
      with women.

      It’s all free. And it’s waiting for you,
      once you click the link below:

      LINKLINKLINKLINKLINK

      Enjoy!

      Your Friend,

      – Vin

      PS. But don’t wait too long
      because… I’m only gonna keep
      this article online for a few days.

      I’m watching the ‘daily stats’
      and if they break 2,000 views
      then… woo boy… that’s just
      too many for me!

      (I use these techniques in MY
      life, too, you know.. So I’d like
      them to stay relatively secret
      and exclusive…)

      Make sure you read
      One Minute Mind Reading
      before it’s too late:

      https://vindicarlo.infusionsoft.com/go/ommrno/blackheath/

      (when I sent out this email,
      there were already 1,400 hits,
      today! :-)

  16. I’m a member of what some call the “Manosphere,” a group of blogs that are an offshoot of the seduction community. These guys talk about “Game” more than just pickup, which– as others have noted– heavily emphasizes personal improvement and contentment.

    I think something that would open your eyes to the well-roundedness of the guys who study this stuff would be a blog called Married Man Sex Life (marriedmansexlife.com). It’s basically about how game can be used to improve marriages and long-term relationships too. Ultimately, game is just a crystallization of male/female dynamics with manifold benefits.

    In the end, all of us know that game is just a means to an end, and it’s up to the individual to figure out what goals they want to reach with this new toolkit. For many, that means a long-term relationship or marriage, which will probably be happier and more passionate than without “game.”

    On the other hand, my personal blog is completely based on a “notch” tally, but I recognize the inherent irony of that, and I do avoid just thinking of the girls I’m with as numbers– despite the simplifications I make when recounting my experiences. It’s more of an interesting hook for my blog than anything else.

    Dagonet
    thequestfor50.wordpress.com

  17. I’m a member of what some call the “Manosphere,” a group of blogs that are an offshoot of the seduction community. These guys talk about “Game” more than just pickup, which– as others have noted– heavily emphasizes personal improvement and contentment.

    I think something that would open your eyes to the well-roundedness of the guys who study this stuff would be a blog called Married Man Sex Life (marriedmansexlife.com). It’s basically about how game can be used to improve marriages and long-term relationships too. Ultimately, game is just a crystallization of male/female dynamics with manifold benefits.

    In the end, all of us know that game is just a means to an end, and it’s up to the individual to figure out what goals they want to reach with this new toolkit. For many, that means a long-term relationship or marriage, which will probably be happier and more passionate than without “game.”

    On the other hand, my personal blog is completely based on a “notch” tally, but I recognize the inherent irony of that, and I do avoid just thinking of the girls I’m with as numbers– despite the simplifications I make when recounting my experiences. It’s more of an interesting hook for my blog than anything else.

    Dagonet
    thequestfor50.wordpress.com

  18. I think the book The Game is a great introductory book for people who never heard about the fact any guy can become good with women. Most people believe it takes wealth and good looks to get the most desirable women, but that’s not necessarily true. Sure it helps, but the fact that you can date women without these is an eye opener for a lot of guys.

    Like you said, it’s up to the guy to figure out what he wants to get out of it. Some guys want to sleep with a lot of women, whereas others just want to settle with someone they like. Yes, there are some dark corners in this little community, but which industry doesn’t have that? There is a lot of information out there nowadays; some bad, some good. All in all, I think this industry is going to become only bigger and bigger.

    It is easy to get lost, but sometimes you have to in order to find where you are really headed to.

  19. I agree with many of the comments below in that most of what you have written about above is fairly dated… In my experience, the seduction community has evolved well beyond lines and being fake. Most of the ‘gurus’ have transformed into standard self help experts who preach self development and lifestyle design. Because no amount of lies, fancy clothing or cool bar tricks is going to allow you to keep a quality woman. She will eventually realise you are just a looser with a few tricks.

    You need to develop confidence through living, changing your values, behaviour, lifestyle, social circle. By working on your wealth and health.

    The short term fixes may work for the short term, but they are not what is being promoted any longer in the seduction community.

  20. Do the members of this group know that if they are pretending to have fake occupations to sleep with someone, they can actually get in a lot of trouble? It’s called rape by fraud, and some people take it seriously.

    Just sayin’.

  21. I enjoy this tidbit of advice from Dan Savage: “The best way to get girls [or guys] to think you’re interesting, is to actually BE interesting.”

  22. I was really pissed off by Mystery on that show.I wouldn’t touch that guy with a ten foot pole and would see past his insincerity in a heartbeat. I felt bad for the guys in the program who clearly needed help, and were being taught all the wrong lessons. Time and time again, men think women are objects to possess, rule over and acquire. This is why amazing, smart, beautiful women don’t have guys because they refuse to deal with these insane attitudes. Good guys who are real and genuine can seem few and far behind. Thank you for blogging this Colin. Also, many women could learn a lesson from this as well….girls who are trying to dumb themselves down because they hope to not intimidate the men they meet make me so sad. It’s an endless cycle: what you put out there is what you’re going to get. Ok I’ll stop ranting now. :)

  23. I think I agree with you pretty much 100%… I just can’t understand the idea of making up an entire story about yourself to get a girl. Doesn’t it feel demeaning to have to lie about yourself, making it sound like you are a very interesting and cool person to get laid? I try to just be naturally more fun and tell the truth :) Not going to get all the girls, but I still have genuine self-respect without need for reinforcement.
    Though, at the same time, one can definitely learn a few things that are helpful and harmless from the whole strategy… Anyway, thank you for this post! I have a few friends that love the pick-up artist stuff and I’ll use your post in my support if I debate it with them again ;-)

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